In Love and War: Life in Ukraine calls for much prayer, service, and sacrifice
Vanessa McElroy has lived and served in Ukraine for 21 years. She shares what life is like in her country right now as she prays for peace and opens her home to those who have fled the conflict.
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Vanessa McElroy felt led to move to Ukraine 21 years ago, following several years of ministering to women in Russia. She now believes she was called to the war-torn nation “for such a time as this,” and has been actively welcoming and serving those who have fled the current conflict. She shares what life is like in Ukraine right now and how she is able to care for those who have lost everything.
In Love and War: Life in Ukraine calls for much prayer, service, and sacrifice
Cathy: Welcome to The End of the Road Podcast. My name is Cathy. I'm your host and tour guide as we journey together to some of the most remote, challenging places on the planet. I'm so excited to have you along for the ride so buckle up, we're going to The End of the Road.
Cathy: Our guest, today, is Vanessa McElroy. Vanessa lives in Ukraine. She's talking with us, today, from her home in Western Ukraine, where she serves in ministry through her local church, there. I know Vanessa because of my church. Shout out to Calvary Fellowship in Mountlake Terrace, Washington. I want to just clarify that Vanessa is not connected to World Concern, but I wanted to invite her to be our guest on the podcast because we're talking about what God is doing around the world in some hard places, some hard situations. I would imagine that, with the current situation in Ukraine, which we're all aware of, is definitely a hard place to live, right now. First of all, Vanessa, just thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us, today.
Vanessa: Thank you, Cathy, for inviting me. It's a pleasure.
Cathy: Awesome. I want to just start by asking you, how are you doing? I noticed a post the other day that it's been more than 100 days, now, of war in Ukraine. So, how are you doing?
Vanessa: That's right, Cathy. It has been more than 100 days. As of this recording, it's 103 days of war in Ukraine. I'm doing well. I have moments where I get really angry as to what's going on. I get angry because of the atrocities that are happening, because of the bombings, the missile strikes, as well. The atrocities, also, that are happening to women, children, and to grandmothers and grandfathers, too, things that we cannot, even in our minds, fathom doing to somebody, that's happening. I get angry, and I start yelling. Today's a good day. Praise the Lord. My emotions are pretty calm, today.
Cathy: Okay. Good. I'm so glad to hear that, that you're doing well, and God is taking care of you. How long have you lived in Ukraine?
Vanessa: I've lived in Ukraine for about 21 years, I believe it is, this month.
Cathy: Wow. That's a long time.
Cathy: Why Ukraine? What brought you to Ukraine?
Vanessa: Well, I was initially a missionary in Russia, and I was ministering with Healing Hearts Ministries. They minister to post-abortion women. The Lord sent me over to Russia to minister to these women from what I, too, had experienced. That ministry was coming to and end in Russia. I met George and Pam Markey who were in charge, I think you could say, of Calvary Chapels in Ukraine. They invited me to come and be a missionary with them.
Cathy: Awesome. Okay. You made the move over to Ukraine. Do you feel like you were called to this particular place? Especially, right now, it seems like you're really positioned in a unique place-
Cathy: ... for such a time as this.
Vanessa: You're right. It is, for such a time as this. I do feel like I was called to Ukraine. It was made very evident, actually, before I moved from Russia. I was sort of hesitant about it at first. Before I was packing up my stuff, there was a Calvary Chapel magazine, and the feature part was about George Markey. He had come back from America because he had some medical problems, but the whole feature was about Calvary Chapel, Kyiv, Ukraine. I told my roommate, at the time. She goes, "You're moving to Ukraine." I'm, "No, I'm not." She said, "Yes, you are." You know? Then the Lord showed me in a dream that I was to minister to others from what I, too, had experienced, minister to those who were in chains. I expressed that to my roommate, as well. She said, "You are moving to Ukraine." And, I did. I packed up all my worldly goods, and went on a train, and crossed the border, and came to Ukraine. It's been home. It has felt more like home than anything else has.
Cathy: Wow. That's incredible. Well, take us on a little bit of a journey into Ukraine. Describe Ukraine as a country, the people there. What do you love about it? Just give us kind of a picture of what life is like in Ukraine.
Vanessa: Ukraine is a very beautiful country. It's very rich in culture, and also in the land, as well. It has many beautiful sites to see. Kyiv is the capital, and there are many sites to see in Kyiv. The people are warm, and open, and welcoming. Spiritually, Ukraine is more open than I have felt in any other place. We're able to evangelize without fear of being arrested, or anything like that. We're able to share about God openly, whether we're having people over for a meal or whether we're out in the streets. There's a very openness, and people are wanting to find out, "What is it about this God that you're talking about?" Ukraine is fairly Orthodox. Where I live, we have both Orthodox and Catholic influence. They're wanting to understand how we have such peace, but we're able to explain that. They're very open to receive that, as well.
Cathy: That's interesting. Able to explain how you have, yeah, such peace. I can imagine that in a time like this, of conflict and war, and fear, and all those things happening, that people are even more in search of peace and hope.
Vanessa: That's right, Cathy. A lot has happened since the war started. The war actually started in 2014, in Kyiv. That's when the Russians first tried to invade our country. We were able to push them back, but many, many, many people died there because of that. It was amazing how Ukrainians came together as a people, to defend their country. Youth, grandmas, grandpas, they came to fight. They were putting metal pots on their head to protect them because they didn't have any armor. They were using metal colanders to protect their heads. They were coming to defend their country, their Homeland. This is their home, and nobody was going to take it away. Ukrainians are very nationalistic. Ukraine is their home, and they don't want that taken from them. Russia tried to invade, and we were able to fight them back.
Vanessa: We call it the Heavenly Hundred, but there was more than 100 people who died from Russia's snipers. They were on the roofs in Kyiv, and they shot down, just randomly, people all over the place. We were able to push them back, and we didn't have, I wouldn't say we had peace in the land, because the war continued. But, the war continued on the East. It didn't affect people in the North or in the West as much. They had captured Crimea and made that the people's Republic of Crimea, and Donetsk, and Lugansk, I believe as well, and made those the people's Republic of. Those were the areas that had been kind of taken away from us. It was a huge battle that happened. Ukrainians really tried to hold onto their land.
Vanessa: Even from that time, Ukrainians did not like that parts of their country had been taken from them, and they want it back. They want Ukraine to be whole again. Like I said, the war started in 2014, and it's been continuing. What happened in February was that Russia, again, tried to invade Ukraine. They tried to invade Kyiv, and they were unsuccessful, again. Praise the Lord. We were able to push them back. They went from that area, and they went through other areas, trying to capture different areas. Now, they have said that they have freed Mariupol, and they have freed other cities. I can't remember all the ones that they have said that they have freed, but the battle is still going on. As we speak, soldiers are dying. Atrocities are happening to women and children. The flow of refugees, people leaving their homes, has pretty much stopped, as it was in the beginning.
Vanessa: In the beginning, there were so many people trying to leave that the trains were packed. People were sleeping nose-to-nose with each other, children and women. Men are not allowed to leave the country. Up to a certain age, 70, I think, is the age limit because they're considered able to serve in the army. Women and children were being sent to the West to where I live, or they were going abroad to Hungary, to Poland, to Slovakia, to Germany, some have gone to America, just to be able to be safe. Their husbands wanted them to be safe so women and children were saying goodbye to husbands, dads, not knowing when they would see each other again, if ever.
Vanessa: That part has slowed down. We called that the short-terms, went through. Now, that the war has kind of turned away from Kyiv, we have what we call the long-term refugees. Those who have stayed, whether they're staying in Poland, or Hungary, or Germany, or here in the West, they're staying, and they're waiting it out. They're seeing what's going to happen. "Are they going to be able to return home? Is there going to be a home for them to return to?" A lot of people don't have a home, at all, to return. It's been bombed completely. They don't have a home. That's kind of where things are now. I speak of the atrocities. I don't want to get into a whole lot of detail about what's happened, but there is hope. There is hope in the Lord. I believe that is what sustains me, that hope that I have.
Vanessa: People have asked me, "Why didn't you leave? You have an American passport. You could leave at any time." I said, "Yes, I do have an American passport. I could leave any time I wanted to, but Ukraine is home." The people of Ukraine are my brothers and my sisters. I would not leave them at a time like this, to suffer. I would feel just horrible being somewhere else, and not being able to help here. I don't blame anybody. I don't feel bad about anybody else who's left because everybody has their own reasons for leaving. I, myself, decided to stay. My pastor left that decision up to each of us teammates. He said, "You decide for yourself. Whatever you decide, I will support you in it." I prayed for a long time about it, and I decided, "I'm staying."
Vanessa: My mother did not want me to. Even before the war began, my mom kept saying, "You need to leave. You need to leave. You need to leave." I said, "No, mom. I'm staying. I'm staying because this is home. I want to be here to help people." I could not imagine leaving, even with an American passport.
Cathy: Well, that's just incredible. What a ministry you have. Thank you for being there, for being in the midst of that, and being there for people in your home. I know that you have, literally, opened up your home to families who are fleeing the conflict and heading toward the West. The area that you're in is relatively safe, right now.
Cathy: I was kind of looking at a map, not realizing how big Ukraine is, but it's quite a big piece of land.
Cathy: On the Western side of the country, things are safe and calm, right now. Therefore, you've been able to have families come through your home. I remember, early on, hearing that you had families, that were on their way to the border to-
Vanessa: Yes. Uh-huh.
Cathy: ... leave Ukraine, coming through and staying with you. What has that been like, to be able to both open up your home and have families there with you, and provide them with a safe shelter to stay in, but also to be with them in the midst of their story, of their experience? I mean, they've left everything. Those of us, here, we're trying to imagine if we had to completely leave behind our homes, and everything that we know that's familiar to us. Some of these families have probably been traumatized, and things like that. What's that been like for you to have them with you in your home?
Vanessa: Well, it's been a very interesting experience. It started, pretty much, right when the war began in February, when I had the first set of families come stay with me. They were friends of mine, and I've known them through the missionary circles. I actually knew the husband before he got married, before he became a pastor. I had told my own pastor that, "My home is open. I can house people. I have a big front room, and I have two couches. I have a chair that pulls out. I have this, that, and this, that, and I can host people." They were the first group that came through. He was really wanting things to be quiet, where he was, at the time, in Mukacheve, and where he was going. He didn't know if anybody was following him, or what might happen.
Vanessa: He was trying to get his family to safety. They were only with me for a short time, maybe about three days. They were my first, and it was a joy having them here. I got to know his children, and I played with them. I was able to talk to them about their flight from near Petrovske, where they were coming from, and how long it took them, which it took them a really long time. At the time when the war started, so many people were fleeing that the highway was clogged. It was bumper-to-bumper traffic. You could not move, literally. You would stay in one place, maybe, for 10 hours before you moved, maybe, a mile, if that. You know? It took him a long time to get here.
Vanessa: He arrived in the middle of the night, and his kids' eyes were really huge when they came. I gave them beds to sleep in, and they had food. I was able to feed them. For me, it was just a way to help somebody in need. "What can I do to help?" What can I do is not only just to pray with them, but to give them a warm place to sleep, and to feed them. This is what Jesus would do. You know?
Vanessa: That's what I desired. Since then, I had a mom and her two children stay with me. She stayed for a while because her husband was, he wasn't serving in the army, but he was being a volunteer. He was trying to get his family out so that he could focus on being a volunteer, and not worry about his family. He was going into places that were really risky. I got to know them really well, and to be able to pray with her, and console her, and just help her with her little baby, as well.
Vanessa: Then, I had a group of nine people come from Mariupol. That was like the maximum number I've ever had at my house. It was great because I had an air mattress. I had a foam pad. I had two couches that pulled out, that could fit two people. I made my arm chair into a bed. I put blankets on the floor. "Okay, guys, this is your area. Whoever wants to sleep wherever, that doesn't matter to me. Here it is." I showed them the shower, the toilet. I made them food. I said, "Just feel at home."
Cathy: Wow. Wonderful.
Vanessa: They actually had a lot of stuff that they left with. They were selling it because they wanted to get, not just to Europe, I think getting to Israel was their last destination. It was a long process before they were able to leave. I got to know them, as well, and they got to know me. Again, it was helping people to feel at home, who've come from such a hard place, and just allowing them to just go, "Huh, I made it. I'm okay. I'm safe." You know? Whether that's a hug, or a smile, or warm food, I was wanting to be available to do whatever.
Vanessa: Then, I had people coming in and out, after that, who were one-nighters, or two or three nights. Presently, I have a family from Mariupol staying with me, and it was great because I know the husband's sister. I serve alongside with her in ministry. She asked me, "Can my brother and his family stay with you?" I said, "Of course." We met them at the train station here in Mukacheve. That was interesting for me because that was right after the Russians had bombed a train station. Here I am, in the train station in Mukacheve. I'm looking at all these people walking around. I'm thinking, "Okay, so if a bomb drops, where do I go?" I'm seeing a mom with a child, and the child's kind of running around. You know how children do. They kind of run around without their mom, and do everything.
Vanessa: I think, "She needs to keep her hand on her child because if a bomb drops, they could get separated." These are the thoughts that are going through my head. You know?
Vanessa: My eyes are just looking everywhere. "What's the safe place? Where is a foundation wall, or a foundation room, that doesn't have windows, where, if something happened, I could get to?" That's what my mind was thinking at the time. Well, Mukacheve was fine. There wasn't any problem with Mukacheve, at the time. That had recently happened in Ukraine. That's where my mind was going.
Vanessa: This family came on the train, and we were able to greet them. They've been with me for, I think, about a month and a half, two months, now. I opened up my home to them. I said, "Here's food, here's the oven. Here's the bathroom, the toilet. This front room is yours. Please, feel at home." I even moved my office out of my front room, and moved it into my bedroom so I could be able to work if it was 10:00 or 11:00, and not have to go, "Oh, excuse me," climbing over people, trying to get to my computer. It's been great having them here. When they first came, they were shy and not quite sure. Now, we laugh, and we joke around. We check with each other. "How are you doing?" "I'm doing great." "What do you have going on?" It's been wonderful.
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. That sounds absolutely amazing. I want to just pause for a moment, and thank our listeners for joining us, today. If you're just hearing about World Concern for the first time, and you're curious to learn a little bit more about who we are and what sets us apart from other organizations you might be familiar with, please visit worldconcern.org/podcast, and learn a little bit more about what we do.
Cathy: Now, let's get back to our conversation. I imagine that maybe the families staying with you, maybe just other families that you know, that have been housed at your church, or served by your church, or even just stories that you've heard, of loss and of hardship during this time, what are people experiencing? What are they dealing with? What kind of stories are you hearing of how people are affected by this war?
Vanessa: Well, you think of posttraumatic syndrome, multiply that times 100, if that.
Vanessa: People are leaving. Air raids going off, constantly. The air raid alarm's going off every hour, every half-hour, constantly going off. They're having to live in the cellar, or live in a basement, or perhaps they found a bomb shelter that they could live in. The family staying with me, they lived in the basement for 20 days before they left. There were a lot of air raids. He said every time the missiles were overhead, the whole apartment just shook from the noise and the volume of it. They never knew what was going to happen. Sometimes they would be able to get out and get some water, or a little bit of food, but they had to be really quick about it. They couldn't dawdle. As my mom would say, "Don't dawdle." They lived there. They had a bed. They made a little place to live, with other people. It's not just them, but they were there with many other families.
Vanessa: I have a friend who traveled from Kharkiv, and it took her four days to get here. It should only take one full day. That was because of the back-to-back traffic. They could hear planes going overhead. She said she was trying to be brave for her children. She's trying not to freak out so her children will not freak out. When she got here, she said, "Why are people walking around so calmly, like nothing's happening? Don't they know that there's a war going on." Yes, we know. Like you said earlier, Mukacheve is a safe place. Western Ukraine is pretty safe, and we are thankful for that. We hope it stays that way.
Cathy: Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa: I have another friend who, with her family, there are six, I think, in her family, not including the mom and the dad, that was serving in the army. They lived in the outskirts of Kyiv. They spent two months, I think it was, in the basement. They could get out and have internet only if they sat in the car. That was dangerous because they didn't know if Russian soldiers would come to them. They didn't know if a bomb would come to them. They didn't know anything. So, they're risking their lives to get internet connection. The reason they need internet was to connect with the outside world, and say, "Hey, we're here. We need help. Can you help us get out?" Well, she has some disabled brothers and sisters who have difficulty walking so that played a factor in all of that.
Vanessa: They were running out of food. They had a fireplace. They were eating potatoes, a lot of potatoes, but they were running out of food. They were running out of water. My church, along with some other churches, we sent a team in to try to get them. I have to go through checkpoints just to get there, not only Ukrainian checkpoints, but Russian checkpoints, as well. They're checking your documents. "Where you're going, here? What are you doing? Who are you?" We were able to get through, but unfortunately, somebody died trying to rescue them so we retreated. We came back, and we regrouped. Meanwhile, they're still there, and they don't know what's happened. They just know that there was a team that came, and they weren't able to do it.
Vanessa: Another team was able to get together. They went in, and got them, but they could not go to them. The Russians came, and got the family, blindfolded them, and took them through the forest. My friend's thought was, "I'm going to die. They're taking me out, and they're going to shoot me. I'm going to die." She said, "Well, I'm thankful that I know Jesus because I'll go to heaven." Those are her thoughts that were going around in her head. She didn't know that she was being rescued. They just said, "Come with us." They were able to lead her out, and lead her to the team that was going to help them get out. They're fine, now. They are located in Europe. Everybody got out safely. Praise the Lord.
Vanessa: That's just one story. I know another group of people who lived in Borodianka. Bombs hit their homes, and my friend's home is done. She has no home. This is the home that she was born in, that she was raised in, that her parents died in. It's her home. Her home was gone. There's nothing there. The friend that was with her, the missile went through her house so she has a big hole. They ran out into the garden. Then, somebody got them, and brought them into this cellar. Then, they were able to have contacts. We were able to get them to Western Ukraine. From Western Ukraine, they went to Europe, but it was quite a flight.
Vanessa: People, in the beginning of the war, that I was able to take to the Hungarian border so they could walk across. One family that I took across, they had no idea how to go across the border. They didn't know about checking your passport. They didn't know about what questions they could ask. They didn't know anything, and didn't have anybody to help them on the other side. Thankfully, I had contacts in Hungary who were helping refugees. I'm driving. I'm trying to talk on the phone, and talk with my contact person in Hungary, and trying to talk to the family that's in my car, and give them a short summary of how to get through the border, to help them. They're kind of really nervous. It's, "Can you go with me?" I said, "No, I can't go across the border. I can bring you to the border, and you can walk across. It's all very simple. Don't be afraid."
Vanessa: They got across and my friend was able to help them on the other side. They had a brother who is here in Mukacheve, who was staying behind, and he was in touch with them. He said, "Thank you for your help. It really, really helped them. They're all safe, and they're grateful."
Vanessa: You don't know how God is going to use you. I've been across the border tons of times, being a missionary. I know kind of the ins and outs of crossing the border, you might say. I'm kind of used to the questions they might ask. Helping people go across the border was time just to pray for them. Get to know them for 40 minutes that it took to drive from Mukacheve to the border, and pray with them, and pray that they got across fine.
Cathy: That's awesome. That's awesome. Wow. Vanessa, thinking of God's protection over people's lives, you had told me a story when we talked before, about a particular man that had an incredible story of protection. What was that?
Vanessa: Yes, Cathy, it's just amazing to hear that There was a grandfather who lives in the Kyiv area, not Kyiv directly, but the outskirts of it. He had been sitting in his front room, reading the newspaper. He was in his chair, minding his own business, reading his newspaper, and he felt like he needed to get up and get a cup of coffee. He got up, and he went to get a cup of coffee. His wife joined him. He heard a sound, and he looked. There was a missile that came right through his home, and there was a big hole in his house. It hit right where he had been sitting before he got up to get the coffee. If he had not gotten up to get that cup of coffee, he would've been dead. He would've been a goner. You know?
Vanessa: What's so beautiful is that we are, as part of the sponsoring, helping to rebuild his house. His house is almost finished, and it's a little bigger than it was. Now, he can host other people while they're waiting for their homes to be built. God's goodness is in everything.
Cathy: Amazing. Amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Incredible stories. You've touched on this a little bit, but I'd love to hear how you see God at work in Ukraine, right now. We know that He's present in every situation, in every place, but how have you, or how have you heard others experiencing his presence, his provision, his protection, in, maybe, unexpected ways?
Vanessa: Well, that's a good question. I can speak for the team, here, as well as for other people, especially for the refugees being able to come here. The family that's staying with me, they didn't know me at all. They just knew that their sister had a friend that they could stay with. I had found out, maybe a week or two after they'd been here, that they were wanting to move to an apartment that had no heat and no running water. I said, "Why? Just stay here. Once you get a job and you're able to save money, and get on your feet again, then you can move. Until then, there's no reason for you to move." That put them at ease. For me, it's just the hope of God.
Vanessa: Like I said, in the beginning, there's times when I get really, really, really upset as to what's happening. Then, I turn to the Lord. I know that He sees and hears everything. I don't know why He's not stopping it. There's a lot of questions as to why is this happening, and nobody, really, is going to know until heaven. I think by the time we get to heaven, we're not going to care. We'll be too busy rejoicing and praising the Lord. It's through Him that I have hope. I have hope in Him, and that hope keeps me calm. The hope that I have in Him, I can pass that on to other people when I'm praying for them, whether I'm praying for them out loud, or when I'm praying for them silently. When I hear that Russia bombed this city, and this many people died, and this many children died, I can pray for them. I can pray for those moms who are grieving because a child that they had, suddenly, not there anymore.
Vanessa: There was a video that was just posted the other day. The graduating classes always have what we call the Last Bell. It's like a prom, and the class always does a special waltz. Well, this class was located in Kharkiv, which is one of the cities that has been pretty much hit by the Russians. The school's been destroyed, but they did the last waltz in front of their school building, that was destroyed. You see Ukrainian army men, standing there to protect them. You notice that there's only two guys dancing. Usually, each gal has a guy dancing with her. There's three or four girls who don't have a partner. Either that partner died, or they're in Europe somewhere, or they're in Western Ukraine. They decided to dance in front of the schools. That just blows my mind.
Vanessa: You see swing sets, where there should be children swinging in them, but the swings are facing a bombed out building. That gives me an opportunity to pray for that city, pray for those kids, pray for the graduates of all the cities who are graduating this week, or last week, that God would comfort them in this time, that God would give them hope, and that He would direct their lives, and that they would know that they haven't survived for nothing, that God wants to use them. We have a bunch of youth who came from one of the seminaries in Kyiv, where they were studying. They have settled, here, at our refugee center. I'm able to share with them God's love. They know it, but to know it, and to have it and to experience it, are two different things. It's just the hope of Christ that sustains me during this time.
Cathy: Yeah. Absolutely. Wow. That's incredible. What would you ask people here in the US, and around the world, who might be listening to this, what would you ask them to pray for, for Ukraine and for the people?
Vanessa: Of course, for an end to the war, and that Ukraine would be a sovereign nation again, like it was before 2014. We're not going to be a people like we were before 2014 because we have changed. We have grown closer, as a culture, together. The war would be stopped, and that all of Ukraine would be Ukraine. Crimea, Donetsk, Lugansk, Mariupol, Sievierodonetsk, all those places, Kharkiv, Kherson, all of those places would be Ukraine again. That's the main prayer. That we would be able to build from the ashes, not just homes but lives, as well. Pray for all of those who have lost loved ones. Children, husbands, moms, grandmas, they would know God's love and God's comfort. If they're desiring, there'll be a link, and they can talk to my pastor.
Vanessa: We do refugee help. Right now, we're sending a box of medical supplies into Kyiv to help at the different hospitals, to help with the different soldiers. Medicine, humanitarian aid, all that stuff is needed. We have a salt crisis happening. The Russians bombed our main salt holding area. Our salt is coming from Romania, and the prices have gone really high, or you can't find salt, at all. Salt is in everything. It's in ice cream for goodness sakes. Yeah. There's many ways that people can help. I think the main thing is to pray. Not just pray for Ukraine to be rebuilt, but pray for the lives, and that people would come to know Jesus, not just for this time of war, but for a lasting relationship with Him.
Cathy: Amen. Amen. Those are wonderful prayers. We certainly join you in those. Vanessa, thank you so much for being with us on the podcast, today. I just pray that God blesses you, and your ministry, and your service to the people of Ukraine, right now. Yeah. Bless you for opening up your home, for caring for people, for just being there, being a light in that really difficult place and really difficult situation, right now. Thank you so much for being with us, today.
Vanessa: Thank you. Thank you, Cathy.
Cathy: I want to thank our listeners for joining us, today. I hope that your mind has been opened up a little bit, your heart has been touched through some of the stories that you have heard, today. As I mentioned earlier, if you're curious about learning a little bit more about World Concern, about our work beyond The End of the Road, you can visit worldconcern.org/podcast to learn more. I want to thank CRISTA Ministries, World Concern's parent organization, for making this podcast possible. I also want to thank Casey Helmick and the whole team at Terra Firma for their production, and editing, and consulting expertise, for helping us bring these stories to life, and bring them to you. Thanks again for joining us, today. We look forward to more stories at The End of the Road. Next time.