Cathy:
Welcome to the End of The Road podcast. My name is Cathy and I'm your host and tour guide as we journey together to some of the most remote, challenging places on the planet. I'm so excited to have you along for the ride. So buckle up, we're going to the end of the road.
Cathy:
Our guests today are Maggie and Katie both of whom I have the pleasure of serving alongside at World Concern. Maggie is the director of disaster response at World Concern and Katie is the director of transformational development. I have mad respect for both of these women and I'm super excited to have them on the podcast today. You're going to be enthralled with their stories and the places they've lived and worked. I know we talk a lot about hard places at the end of the road but these two have truly experienced some of the hardest places in the world, places like Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. They both have a heart for the Muslim world and for marginalized people including women, children and people who've been displaced by conflict war or disaster. You're going to get to experience a few of these places that most of us will never go through their stories and their lives. So let me officially welcome you two, Maggie, Katie, thank you so much for being with us today on the podcast.
Katie:
Thank you, Cathy.
Maggie:
It's great to be here.
Cathy:
So I'd like to start off today with a question that I ask all of our guests, how did you end up in this line of work serving people in really difficult circumstances? Katie, let's start with you. This was not exactly your childhood dream, was it?
Katie:
Well, it's always a funny question to me because this was the antithesis of my childhood dream, I think. I grew up in a family where, for generations, people had really been serving internationally. A lot of my relatives on both sides of my family were involved in medical work overseas and so I'd seen it for my whole life, heard it talked about. And my parents both grew up overseas and I was dead set against it, I was not at all interested. I thought that seems to be a difficult unpredictable life and you don't seem to make a whole lot of money at it either which didn't sound exciting to me. So I was definitely not envisioning myself in this line of work at any point in my young life.
Cathy:
Maggie, what about you? Was this a lifelong calling for you?
Maggie:
Yeah, definitely not. I also grew up in a family that did this kind of work, not overseas but domestically and definitely did not want to pursue that path and spent a number of years actively trying to resist that path. At the same time, I can see how God had put different things on my heart. I'd always had a heart for people who'd experienced conflict and been displaced. And so I really do feel like that particular call in my heart I felt from a very young age but I didn't really have a clear picture of what that looked like and what that meant in terms of career and calling. I initially wanted to be an actress and pursued acting and so this was definitely a redirection in terms of the course of my life.
Cathy:
Interesting. So other than acting, did you have a childhood dream job? What did you want to be when you grew up?
Maggie:
Honestly, I don't think I really knew. I was one of those kids who had changed a lot. My mom used to say I had more dreams than lives to live. So, at one point I thought I wanted to be a farmer and then my parents described that that involved a lot of cleaning up after animals and that didn't sound as fun.
Cathy:
Awesome. What about you, Katie? What did you want to be when you grew up when you were a kid?
Katie:
The first thing I remember wanting to be was an astronaut but that also later looked like it was going to take a bit more bravery than I had. I do remember wanting to be a teacher at one point but I think that was largely because I wanted to be the boss in the rooms so it was less about forming young minds and more about being in charge. And then I remember fifth, sixth grade. I wanted to be a lawyer. I wasn't at all interested in the law but I knew they made a lot of money especially in that Game of Life, it was always a lawyer or a doctor that made the most money. And so I thought, I know I can't do the medical thing, that's what all my family does. If you're bleeding, don't come to me. So I thought, I guess maybe lawyer.
Cathy:
So, it's interesting you mentioned bravery. So you two to me are some of the be bravest women that I know, some of the bravest people that I know but I've heard both of you comment on bravery before. Do you consider yourselves brave?
Katie:
I would say no. I guess I remember talking to a mentor of mine a few years ago when I was heading into a difficult situation and she said, "You're so brave." And I said, "I'm not brave, I'm terrified." And she said, "Bravery doesn't mean you're not afraid, it means you step forward into that despite the fear." And I think I've always been very aware of my fears and fears have the real potential to paralyze me and so I think I was always aware of that and never really considered myself either brave or adventurous.
Maggie:
Yeah. I relate to what Katie said a lot. I think that people at different points have described me as fearless and I just have to laugh because inside I'm terror stricken a lot of the time. Yeah, I think that Katie's definition of bravery, that one makes sense to me but I definitely move forward in fear a lot. And I think that a lot of it comes to trusting that God will be there and that God will be with me even if I'm moving forward into something that terrifies me. I definitely feel a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety but have often been able to move forward because of what God's put on my heart and also the people that God has surrounded me with that move forward in that fear with me.
Cathy:
Thanks for that transparency, I think a lot of our listeners will relate to that. It's a scary time in our world and I think a lot of people are experiencing anxiety. And so I think to be able to look to people like you guys that have taken some risks and been through some really challenging experiences in your life to know that you still have those same feelings, I think is encouraging to listeners today. Let's fast forward a little bit in your life to that moment that you realized that God was calling you to a far away place. So moving to those first overseas places that you would eventually call home, Katie for you, it was Sri Lanka. How did you feel when that reality really sank in that you would be moving to Sri Lanka?
Katie:
Yeah, it was all a bit surreal. I mean, the Lord had kindly really confirmed and affirmed all along the way and so I had an assurance that this was his plan and his time and his place but I actually flew over there on my birthday. So my birthday passed while I was in the air. I was like, "I don't even know if I got older actually." Technically, I think I missed that day. And I was going with team members who I had never met one of them and the other one I'd only seen, I knew his family but I didn't know him. So, we landed in Sri Lanka. I'm assaulted by the humidity which some people love it, they call it a warm hug. And I like, "It is more like a smack in the face to me." It's just hot and humid. And I remember I was going through the motions and we stayed in a guest house that first night because the house that we were moving into wasn't ready.
Katie:
And I remember waking up the next morning thinking, "What have I done?" "I've actually worked hard to get here and I don't even know what I'm doing here. How am I going to make it?" So it was completely overwhelmed.
Cathy:
Oh yeah. How did your family feel about you moving to Sri Lanka?
Katie:
I'm really blessed to have a very supportive family and I would say, it's not easy for them. I mean, even at that time, Sri Lanka was still in the midst of civil war and a lot of uncertainties and a lot of insecurities. But I think my family's always been very supportive of going where the Lord leads and trusting him and I've appreciated that demonstration of faith. Because, when I would speak to even parents of other young people, they'd say, "Wow, we're glad it's you because we could never let our kids do this." And I always told them what a blessing and testimony it was to me that my parents responded in faith for me to see that when I was called so they were really supportive.
Cathy:
That's fantastic. And so Maggie, your first experience living in a really foreign land was Egypt. What was that like when you first stepped off the plane in Egypt?
Maggie:
Yeah. Even just hearing Katie share, honestly all of the emotions of that just flood back when I think about it. I arrived in the middle of the night by myself. It was really the first time I'd ever gone anywhere where there wasn't someone I knew waiting on the other end and I arrived at the airport and it was night and it's so overwhelming. I didn't understand the visa process and so I ended up waiting in this line and then getting sent back. I mean, it took me I think three hours to get through because I did it wrong the first time. And then I got out and I booked this random guest house for one night. I'd rented an apartment off of Craigslist and paid for it before arriving which now looking back was maybe a questionable decision but gratefully, it worked out.
Maggie:
But I had to spend one night in a guest house and I'd booked this random hostel. There was someone waiting there with my name on a sign to take me. I remember just him flying down these streets in the middle of the night at such a high speed. And I get to the little hostel, I was the only guest which is an odd feeling. And I just remember the room was not clean and there was just so much noise. Cairo is a very active city, it's awake all night. And I just remember I crashed into the bed and cried and cried and cried and was like, "I have made a terrible mistake. I am not cut out for this. What was I thinking?" And I don't even remember falling asleep, I'm not sure if I did but I woke up in the morning and I opened up the curtains and through this tiny sliver in between the concrete jungle that is Cairo, I could see this tiny view of the Nile and it was sparkling in this sun and there was a felucca, which is one of the traditional sailboats.
Maggie:
And I just remember in that moment, I felt curious. I was like, "Okay. Maybe there's a reason that I'm here and maybe I can explore." And then stepping out into the streets of Cairo for the first time, it was total chaos from my perspective. And I was trying to find my way to my new home, had no idea how to ask where to go. And eventually this taxi driver had mercy on me and committed to trying to figure out where I needed to be and nobody knows street names. And so all I had was a street name but eventually he figured out where I was supposed to go and he helped me. Got out of the taxi, walked the streets with me until I found the building and this man comes out and he would become a dear friend. He was our bewab, which is the building's guard. It's not quite the right term but it's probably the closest.
Maggie:
And he's just speaking to me so fast in Arabic. I don't understand a single word but in the end I ended up in my little apartment where the next day my roommate joined me. Yeah, it was truly one of those moments where I really questioned my choice but ended up feeling comforted by just those few people who hold your hand and help you through those moments of overwhelm.
Cathy:
Yeah, I imagine. So over time you learnt the language, you made friends, you established relationships, really made Cairo your home and you happened to be there at a really historic time. But before we get into that, you told me once about a special place that you visited almost daily in your neighborhood, wasn't there?
Maggie:
Yeah. So I feel like everywhere I've lived, there's been a little spot. So in Cairo, I had a little stand at the bottom of my building that sold cold drinks, Pepsis and water. And then across the street, there was a man named [Ragab 00:13:24] and he had a little sweet shop where he started to figure out what I liked and would special order things for me because I liked sparkling water, they were called Barakas and I liked hibiscus tea and he would start to ask he's like, do you just want me to get a case of these because you drink a lot of them. And so I feel like it's just everywhere I walked, there were people who knew me and would call out to me and say good morning and knew me by name.
Maggie:
And later on, when I lived in Jordan, it was a hummus shop where they knew my order and would see me standing in line and already know what I wanted. And then as the language develops, you're able to get to know people more and really just felt the richness of those relationships and just how it gives you a sense of safety when you're known by people, these people were looking out for me. And I think that gave me a sense of peace in what felt at times like a scary place.
Cathy:
Yeah. So again, you were there at a really historic time and so were in Egypt when the revolution broke out. Yeah, describe that time and how some of these relationships that you'd built ended up coming in really handy in terms of your safety during that time?
Maggie:
Yeah. So when it happened I was working in Egypt and also doing grad school so a lot of my classmates were still on winter break and out of the country so I was actually alone in my apartment when it started. And it's interesting because to be honest, in the first few days, I didn't really understand what was happening. Our cell phone service, our internet, I didn't didn't have TV so all of that was cut and so you're really relying on what you saw and I lived right where all of it was happening so I could see it out my window. But the scale of it, I couldn't really comprehend because I didn't have access to that information. So even when the cell phone lines did open up, I called my parents, I was worried because I didn't have a lot of phone credit.
Maggie:
And so I called them and was like, "Hey, I don't know if you've seen the news but there's some stuff happening. I'm okay. If you can call me back, call me back but if not, it's okay. Talk to you soon." And of course they were dying waiting for information from me because they didn't hear from me for about a week. Yeah, I think it's funny because I didn't really fully understand all of what was happening but obviously over time it became clear and because of where I lived, I ended up going out onto the balcony one night to just see if… You shout to your neighbors across the street or next door from your balcony, you're like, "What's going on?" And that was my way of getting information. And I stepped out there and there was a soldier on my balcony that I didn't know.
Maggie:
So he just shut the door again and I think that was when I started to realize this is more significant. There was another day where the police who were afraid because people were targeting them, were banging on my door asking for clothes. They wanted to take off their uniforms and wear something else. And so eventually the landlord of my building came to me and was like, "I can't keep you safe. I'm trying so hard to protect you but I think you need to leave." And so my neighbors, including these shop owners and one of their sons essentially escorted me out along with a couple other people that we'd rallied around in the area. And they walked us two and a half miles out of that area to a car where they had arranged for someone to drive me to someone else's house further out of town.
Maggie:
And so I think that that was a really difficult time for everyone in Egypt. And I still feel so grateful that people showed me that love and that care in a time where they themselves were experiencing loss and experiencing uncertainty. That still was just a very powerful example of friendship to me.
Cathy:
Incredible, wow. Now, Katie, you spent five years in Afghanistan. That is a place that is on our hearts and minds just so deeply right now. Most people, when they think of Afghanistan, they actually think of the Middle East but it's not actually in the middle east, is it?
Katie:
Right? Which I myself grew up thinking it was the Middle East. I was surprised, I had to reorient my world when I learned it was actually central Asia and I had to look again at a map and say, "It turns out, yes. It's central Asia." So it's still often referred to as the Middle East even now but yeah, it's central Asia.
Cathy:
So give us a picture of Afghanistan. What does it look like? What does it feel like? What's it like there?
Katie:
Yeah. I think when I first entered Afghanistan, I was coming from Sri Lanka. And Sri Lanka was this place where I felt like God had just experimented with everything. There were jungles and white sand beaches and all kinds of things. And I remember flying in over Kabul and looking down and thinking, I only see brown. I wonder what's going to happen when you get down there. And the first few times I walked the streets, I still saw brown because there's a lot of mud walls and everybody sort of lives inside a compound of some sort. So you're not seeing really the house, you're seeing the walls of the compounds. And when I moved into my city, I remember walking down the street and I thought I'm never going to know which is my street, they all look the same. I think it's just because everything was so foreign.
Katie:
And then as you start to become more familiar, I started to see the color. I start to see the people, I start to see the landmarks but at first everything is just so overwhelming. And then when there's chances to get outside of the city and to be there through the different seasons, I mean, I didn't know that it snowed so much in Afghanistan.
Cathy:
I didn't either.
Katie:
Yeah, when we had our first snow one October, I think it was October 31st actually, one of the years. We got very early snow and the white just starts to cover all the brown and then later in the spring when you get to go out to some of the mountains surrounding there, just fields of flowers that are beautiful and driving up through the Salang Pass in the winter which is quite treacherous, not always advisable but gorgeous, beautiful. And it just has some stunning scenery and some beautiful places. But I think as well, like Maggie was talking about, the kindness of the people really begins to bring the depth to the place that you start to know and to call home and to start to be known by people is such a gift and a real sweet part of this life.
Cathy:
Yeah. Tell us a little more about the Afghan people. What are they like? What are some of their ways of life, their cultural traits? What makes them special?
Katie:
There's so much. There's an incredible diversity in Afghanistan but I would say one of the very first things that an expat woman told me when I moved there is, she said to me, "Well Katie, in Afghanistan you will never cry alone." And I said to her, "What do you mean by that?" And she said, "The women here will come around you in community and if you are feeling something, they will feel it with you. And if you are crying, they will cry with you." And she said, "I've never alone here." And I found that to be true in my five years, I never cried alone. There's an incredible way that the community comes together and journeys together that is through the thick and the thin. And I think it's sweet to see as well with the men.
Katie:
We had some shop owners as well nearby like Maggie was talking about that come to know your order and they would know the orders of the expats because we stood out. And so I remember one of the shop owners told me one day, "Tell that friend with the glasses that the yogurt that she likes is coming tomorrow." And I had to wait in his store one time for a pickup. As women, we don't really just wait on the street on our own there and so the car was late. And so I popped into the shop and I said, "Is it okay if I just wait in here for a minute?" And the shop owner brought me a stool to sit on and a diet Coke which is my vice and he knew. Well, Coke lite.
Cathy:
Still is.
Katie:
Indeed.
Cathy:
I see you drink that coke a lot these days.
Katie:
It's universal. So just such care and concern. Also, we had people that we would call guards too but they're really not the picture of a guard. I mean a guard you might picture as armed and trained which they weren't either but they were sweet typically older men who tried to stay awake enough to avert thieves and often the market. So one of our guards, he just became one of my favorite people, he's like an uncle to me and I remember him. He saw one day that I was getting ready for some guests who were coming over and these happened to be foreign guests who were coming. And so he came and said to me, "Now Katie it looks like you're cooking and preparing for guests so how can I help you?" I said, "I think I'm all right." He says, "Do you need me to go to the market for anything?" I said, "No, I think we're good." He says, "Well, I've noticed you don't have oranges and bananas."
Katie:
And in Afghanistan you just would not host people without fruit, it just wouldn't be right. And so I said, "Yeah, that's okay." I said, "These are foreigners coming tonight. They're doing the weird thing where we all bring something." He's like, "Yeah, maybe you just want some oranges and bananas anyway." And I said, "I think we'll be all right." He says, "Okay, okay. So I'll just go get two kilos maybe?" What I loved about is he was like, "This is our home. We're going to be good host and I want to help you be a good host." And he had such a vested interest in my wellbeing and was just determined to take care of us and so it's a real kindness, such a blessing.
Cathy:
I love that, that's beautiful. Did you ever feel scared or did you ever find yourself in a situation that you maybe felt unsafe or anything like that?
Katie:
Yeah. There were a few of those times. I started there during a time when security was a little bit better and then it was deteriorating over time and so we were adjusting to that and watching that. And I remember on one day in particular, there had been some events going on in the US that were angering the Muslim world in general and so I was out walking some neighborhoods. And I got a phone call from a friend and she said, "Are you listening to what's being announced today from the mosque?" And I couldn't really understand, the loud speaker distorted everything. And so I said, "No, I haven't been listening." And she said, "Well, you might want to go home because they're telling people if they see Americans today to beat them or to throw things at them."
Katie:
And she said, "I just recommend maybe be at home today." And so I thought, "Well, that's good advice. Let me make haste." So I walked back home and I turned onto my street and there were several men outside as was common during anything that would be more of an incident and so there was these men. And typically on the street in Afghanistan, a man wouldn't come and talk to a woman that's not in his family. He might not even talk to a woman that's in his family. But these men that day approached me and they said, "Today is probably not a good day for you to be out." And they said, "As long as you're on this street, you're okay. We can take care of you on this street. This street is your home but we can't protect you on the other streets so just stay home today and that would probably be best." And again, I just appreciated their concern for me. They had no reason necessarily to be concerned about my life at all but they were.
Cathy:
So that's not really an ongoing sentiment or thing that you would hear or experience on the streets of Afghanistan? Something had happened that had triggered that threat, is that right?
Katie:
Yeah. And I think that's why even my friend had called me, it was an unusual experience. And it had been triggered by actions in the US that honestly, I think the Muslim world had every right to be quite angry about. And it was interesting that they were even saying this from the mosque because I heard no reports of anything actually being done against anybody. I think it was more just an expression of outrage at what had been done that was really dishonoring to them. But it was highly unusual, which is I think why they were just alerting me to be a bit extra cautious today. I remember another incident where there had been an attack in our city and we didn't know if it was against particular organization or if it was a broader attack against foreigners.
Katie:
And I got a call from a neighbor who said, "This could be a broader attack and your house is known for housing foreigners. So do you want to come to our house and do you want to stay with us tonight?" And he and his family really meant. That was a genuine offer and that would put them and their family at much greater risk for now housing foreigners but he was willing to and that was the care and concern that I experienced over and over again in Afghanistan.
Cathy:
Beautiful. Maggie, some of us, I would say, have preconceptions about people who live in some of these places that are very foreign to us, very unknown to us, maybe even prejudices. So you spent some time in Iraq, you were there for half the year over a period of several years going back and forth there to Iraq. Definitely, I would say that people might have preconceptions about Iraqi people. What would you say to those people about the people that you met during your time there?
Maggie:
Yeah. It's a good question. I'd say that whatever your preconceptions are, they're probably quite different than reality. I think a few things stand out to me when I really think of when I first arrived in Iraq. And I'd worked with a number of Iraqis for years and I feel like through their stories had really come to be so interested in these places that just have so much history and so much diversity. I mean, there's just so many different people and religions in Iraq and I think that's one of the things that I would say. There are Christian populations, Syrians, Chaldeans that just go back so far in history. There's Yazidi people, there's Muslim people of different sects and I think that it's just this beautiful place of diversity. I also think of just the welcome that I experienced and I think one of the things that I really think about when I think of Iraq is that people were genuinely curious to know you as an individual.
Maggie:
And even though I was American and even though I was Christian, people did not associate me just with this one homogenous group. They'd even say sometimes like, "We don't see you as your government." And I think that's sometimes something we don't afford to other people. We see people by this very limited view of their government or the media and I feel like people always sought to know who I was and I think that's just such a gift to approach people with a genuine curiosity and a desire to know who that individual is. There was also a lot of humor. Some of the most hilarious people, sometimes a very sarcastic humor, which I didn't fully expect. And being able to laugh about things that some people might think are inappropriate to laugh about but there was just this sense of humor that was quite unexpected for me and a deep faith.
Maggie:
And I think, like I said, it's not a homogenous faith. There's lots of different religious groups and different ways of practicing. And I think just being able to actually enter into that with some of my friends and experience the beauty of their faith and their practice and the long history in those places and being able to just see the courage and the care that people extended to people who didn't share the religion. I mean, I worked with Sunni, Shia, Christian, Yazidi all in the same office and all working towards the same goal, all serving people who believe different things than them, who had different political views than them, who had different experiences than them. And I really feel like I learned so much from these colleagues about living in humility, it's probably the right word. And living with curiosity, to not make assumptions about people, to not stereotype people but get to know them as individuals.
Maggie:
And I feel like that's something I really want to take with me for the rest of my life. And just how I'm so grateful that people were able to see me beyond my government, beyond just this label of my religion and yeah, that's something that I really hope that I can extend to other people as well.
Cathy:
I want to just pause for a moment and thank our listeners for joining us today. If you're just hearing about World Concern for the first time and you're curious to learn a little bit more about who we are and what sets us apart from other organizations you might be familiar with, please visit worldconcern.org/podcast and learn a little bit more about what we do. And now let's get back to our conversation.
Cathy:
Maggie, you lived in Jordan for a number of years as well. You were single at the time and so I want to dig in a little further to life as a woman in some of these places. Both for you two and what you learned from women who live in those places, who've always lived in those places. What you saw, what you heard about what it's like being a woman in a place like Jordan, Afghanistan, Iraq, some of these places. So Katie, you were telling me something funny recently about being a single woman in Muslim culture. So, what were you saying about that?
Katie:
Yeah, it was so funny because I quickly discovered that being a single woman was like being another species, there was no concept of it. Because in Afghanistan, you're either your father's daughter or your husband's wife and there's sort of no in between so you don't go out on your own in between and do anything. And so, women would just be amazed by that. They'd be like, "Wow. So you're not married to anybody and you've never been married?" And, "Okay. And you can make decisions and you make money and you go to of meetings." And they'd be fascinated by that. They'd say, "That's really good. That's amazing freedom." But inevitably in the next breath, they'd say, "So when are you getting married?" At times they even offer to help find somebody.
Cathy:
That's just a foreign concept, to be an adult single woman in some of these places. What are some of the challenges that women face in some of these countries?
Maggie:
Yeah. I mean, I can share some. I think in a lot of ways it's the challenges that women face all over the world. I think that a lot of these challenges, have a different look to them in different places but I think a lot of the challenges are the same. I think that it's not everywhere but I do think that generally in a lot of places around the world, women are excluded from decision making spaces. I think that there are challenges that women face especially female headed households, single moms, in these places. That there are barriers to them for being able to access certain things. Women all over the world, in this country and any country, do experience violence and have often few legal routes for seeking justice, of having their voices believed.
Maggie:
I really believe that a lot of the challenges that women face in these places are similar but perhaps intensified by conflict. That when there's conflict, there's often regressions in gender equity and more challenges that women face as a result of conflict itself. And sometimes that's done in some of these places, I often heard it as a desire to protect women but even maybe further excluding them from educational opportunities or work opportunities because of fears and at times, very valid fears of what can happen. Women are targeted in war because of the impact that that has on a community. And at the same time, I think I also witnessed the lengths that communities went to overcome some of those barriers to reintegrate women. I think of Iraq within the Yazidi community, where there was a lot of fear that these women would be marginalized as they were returned from ISIS controlled territories because of the sexual violence that they had experienced.
Maggie:
And that community found a way within their religion to create a ceremony to essentially reintegrate them and say that these women are welcome and they are not to be marginalized and they are to be full participants in this society and I think that's just such a beautiful picture. And the other thing that I would say is, I think there's challenges that women face but I also really have never experienced a sisterhood like I have in some of these places. I think because women and men live more separately in this part of the world and because of that, I feel like there's something unique about being able to be a woman and invited into these secret spaces. They're not secret among women but they're women only. And I do feel like there's that perhaps like a bond of sisterhood that I haven't experienced elsewhere, perhaps because it's often spaces that are only women and you get invited into those spaces and there's a safety in those spaces that maybe you don't feel in others.
Maggie:
And yeah, I really appreciate that and I think that the challenges are immense but I also got to witness the ways that communities tried to find ways to prevent that marginalization from happening which I thought was just… Honestly, I could be moved to tears if I really went into some of the details of it of just how powerful that was also for women to see that they were more than just this one thing that had happened to them. And just the way that the community sought to welcome them and even change some of their practices and their traditions to ensure that they would be full participants in this society.
Cathy:
You told me once about a friend that you had who had lost her entire family in conflict and was a nurse. You talked a little bit about how that experience didn't define her and how she ended up serving others and helping others as a way to cope. Tell us that story.
Maggie:
Yeah. And I think that this is something that I saw common. I did work where we were working with psychosocial workers in these communities that could provide that support. And there was a common theme I saw among all the people doing those work where their response when they arrived in these places was, how can I help? And that was her story where having just experienced this displacement herself and this loss of her family, she found herself at a refugee camp, a camp for displaced people and was looking around. And she was just one semester short of actually completing her nursing degree when she was forced to flee but she was seeing people and she was like, "Okay, I can do something."
Maggie:
And so she started to just apply what she knew about dehydration, about proper nutrition and trying to get people water and get people food and connect people to healthcare and ultimately became a psychosocial worker and then from there has become a community leader in a lot of ways. And just seeing how she responded with what she did have, her skills that she did have, when she saw her community in need and her courage and her love for her community is just still something that I treasure deeply being able to know her.
Cathy:
That's beautiful, thanks for sharing that. Katie, what about you? What are your thoughts on being a woman in a place like Afghanistan? What's it like?
Katie:
Yeah. I feel like Maggie summed it up really well and I was thinking that's part of, I feel, what people are grieving right now. There have been some really great gains for women in Afghanistan in the last several years and you've seen a lot of girls education and young women's education and women able to work more outside the home and to pursue dreams and express some of their gifting in society in different ways that they hadn't been able to for a long time. And so watching as there's questions now about what's going to happen to those gains and as people I know right now, they got their young daughters at home and they don't know if they're going to be able to send them to school again and these girls now, they know what it is to go to school and they know what it is to expect to have an education and to dream about what they want to do and so watching that loss is difficult.
Katie:
And I think, like Maggie said, sometimes women get marginalized even from that desire to protect. But I think ultimately, it's all rooted in this idea that it is for the man to protect the woman and to make those decisions. And so in Afghanistan, it ends up with a lot of women behind a lot of walls. And I remember one of the villages that I worked in, you wouldn't see any women there except for me until, I remember we were working on putting in a pipeline for water and I was inspecting some part of this that nobody else was around and so there were no men and suddenly all these women just descended. And I was like, "You're all here." And they're like, "Hey, we've seen you coming. What is it that you do?" They were quickly conversing, wanting to hear me talk and see me and get to know me.
Katie:
And then they could sense when the men were heading back and they disappeared behind the walls again and so there's this whole other life that's lived behind those walls. It can be difficult, it can be hardening at times and I've seen that but I've also seen glimpses into incredibly soft and beautiful hearts.
Cathy:
Most of these places where you have worked and lived are majority Muslim contexts. And so I think there's a real sort of mystery in North America about Islam as a religion. So, what did you learn about Islam living in these places? And tell me your thoughts on that religion, what might most people not know about Islam?
Maggie:
Yeah. There's a lot I could say. I think that for me, I came to really deeply appreciate the faith of my neighbors in these places. I think some things I even learned and I feel like enriched my own faith in these places. I think that there is a lot of ritual in the Muslim faith. There's set holidays that have certain customs and practices. The call to prayer, which I still miss hearing which happens at least five times a day, sometimes more depending on the day but that call to prayer, that reminder. And I really feel like I came to love that sound and the rhythm that it brought to the day and that reminder to pray. And that reminder throughout the day to bring things to God, I feel like for me, I deeply appreciated that.
Maggie:
I think there is an element of welcome. I feel like I was invited into different holidays in Ramadan when people fast for the whole month from sun up to sun down. Just, again, this deep sense of commitment to that and never being expected to. I mean, people don't expect you to follow that either but being invited in to breaking of the fast. And yeah, what I found is there's often a mutual respect for Christians and Muslims. We both have a book that we follow. We have some stories and people that are shared between our religions and I always appreciated getting to hear those stories from my Muslim friends. Yeah, I think I really came to really deeply appreciate the faith. And the reality that we could share our faith and talk with one another and be open about that with one another, I really found that was such an enriching experience.
Maggie:
I came to really respect the way that so many of my neighbors practiced their faith and knew their faith, that was definitely a learning experience for me and I still miss some of the aspects of that and being able to enter into that with people.
Cathy:
Do you feel like you had an opportunity to maybe show a different side of Christianity as well? I'm sure that in the Muslim world, there's some preconceived notions from that side too about what Christians are like. And so did you get asked questions about Christianity and do you feel like you had a chance to express maybe a little more about your faith?
Maggie:
Yeah, all the time. Like I said, I think that there was genuine curiosity often in terms of even just someone who's practicing their faith. I mean, a lot of foreigners that are in these places maybe aren't actively practicing their faith. And so I think there was some times just like, "You actually believe in God? This isn't just something that's cultural?" And so I think I was asked a lot of questions and asked a lot of questions about specifically what I believed. I think there's misconceptions about what Christians believe so there was often a lot of just desire to understand some specifics about what we believe in terms of who Jesus is and the role that faith has in our lives and how we practice faith, the concepts of what is grace and how are we saved by it.
Maggie:
And yeah, I really just felt like there was a lot of… And a mutual sharing often of being able to have those conversations because I also desire learn and desire to understand my neighbor's faith. And, so much of it came from a mutuality of like, "Well, let's talk about prayer." What is prayer to us and what does it mean to us? And what is the story of Hagar and who is Ishmael and different things where you have this connection but they're different, right? And I think I loved that. I had a friend who the first night I met her was like, "I don't like Christians and I don't like Americans but I'll try to like you." And I feel like that was a consistent thing where people were like, "I have these preconceived notions about who you are but let me actually get to know you and then I'll decide."
Maggie:
And I think in that, being able to share in Ramadan and ask questions myself. Asking, well, what does this night mean? And what does this mean for you? And how does this impact your relationship with God? And I think I learned a lot from that as well in terms of even just being able to explore my own faith and be like, "Well, what does this story in the Bible actually mean to me? And what is the role of prayer? And what do I believe about God's response to our prayers?" Just different things like that. And honestly, I had those conversations all the time and I think that Muslims also a desire to share their faith and share what they know of God. And so there was just so many opportunities to have those conversations and just learn and grow in my faith because of those conversations.
Cathy:
I love that. I want to come back to and talk a little bit more about what both of you learned about God in your time living overseas in foreign lands. Katie a little bit from you about your thoughts about what you learned about the Muslim faith? And just a little bit about your insights about that.
Katie:
Yeah. I think I also really appreciated what Maggie touched on there. One of the things in much of the Muslim world, faith is very integrated into daily life. And so it's not a separate conversation. You don't have to think about, "Well, how do we talk about God? How do we talk about faith?" It's almost just unusual if you don't because that's the stuff of life. And so I loved that, I love that that was always woven in. And I encountered the same curiosity, the questions. I found that there was a real interest in knowing and hearing, why do you do this? Why do you do that? Why is it different? How is it the same? And looking for those commonalities, I think people are always looking for ways to build bridges and to say, how do we relate to each other? And there were so many bridges that were there.
Katie:
And I think I also saw just an incredible generosity. I know one of the five pillars of Islam is about giving alms and supporting the poor but I saw that really lived out a lot. And I think, like Maggie said, there's even sort of ritual and routine to that and what it looks like and so it's expressed. And then I, myself, just experienced an incredible generosity of spirit and heart from people that taught me a lot. And I think the rhythms of life did open up opportunity for rich conversation. I was reminded yesterday, I was thinking about a trip that we took to visit one of the schools that we were helping to support. And this was a couple hours out into the desert and we got there and it was not a school I loved visiting because I would end up going to visit with these few female teachers who didn't really like me at all.
Katie:
They were usually upset with me because my language wasn't that great and I didn't bring medicine for their aching these and back and so they saw really no reason for me to be there. And yet, men were off having conversations in other rooms and so they'd be like, "Go visit the teachers." And so we spent time with each other. And I remember I was there one time and there's this one particularly stern woman and it was Ramadan so they were fasting. And so there she was with her stern face and we're sitting chatting and she said, "Are you Muslim?" And I said, "I'm not Muslim but I am a person of faith." And so she said, "Well, what faith?" And I said, "I'm a follower of Jesus." And she said, "So, do you fast?" And I said, "I do fast but it's different when we fast as followers of Jesus, it's a little different."
Katie:
So she says, "So what do you mean it's different? How is it?" I said, "Well, it's not always at the same time. It's not always for the same period of time." And I said, "We might do it together as a group. We might seek God for something in particular." And then I said, "And then sometimes I fast just because God will ask me to fast." And that woman's hard, stern face changed in an instant and she had this childlike expression on her face and she said, "You know God?" The way she said it was so childlike and she said, "So, you know God?" I said, "Yeah, I know God." And she said, "And he talks to you?" And I said, "Yeah, he does." And one of the other ladies who didn't usually speak, she said, "What does he sound like?"
Katie:
And so I talked about what it's like to listen to the voice of God. And one of them said, "Does is that happened in a dream?" And I said, "No, this is when I'm awake." And I said, "I know that you also talked to God." And they said, "Yeah, we talked to God but he doesn't talk to us." And I was really convicted in that moment first of all because I'd started to just see them as stern women that I had to somehow manage each time I went out there. And they gave me the gift of such vulnerability to show me, you know what? We're hungry for God in the same way that you are and we're seeking him in the way that we know how just like you are.
Cathy:
What a beautiful example of just how God used you in that moment and how you availed yourself. It was God that arranged those meetings, not necessarily according to your will but he really used you and that's incredible. And so, I think seeing God at work it's been really eyeopening for me as I've had exposure to different parts of the world to recognize God, to see him at work in some of these places. To see that it's the God that I know and love and am familiar with just the same no matter where we are or who we're with. And I think that sometimes in our minds, we have these constructs that we think God is sort of bound by, that he's not. And so I've had the chance to spend some time in Bangladesh, I've been a couple times, also a predominantly Muslim country.
Cathy:
And I remember one time being in a village and seeing some Muslims really serving and loving and caring for the people in their community and it was such a beautiful thing. It really caused me to question some of my own personal preconceptions or even prejudices. And so I just remember praying that night and asking God, "What's the deal? You don't just work through Christians or people that follow Jesus." And I felt like in his gentle and loving way, God said, "No, religion is not a barrier for me." And I guess I had seen it as a barrier and what both of you have shared today, I think really brings that barrier down. And we can see that God is at work in all people, in all places, at all times. So I'm wondering if either one of you have just a thought or a memory of really seeing evidence of God or recognizing God or seeing him at work in a hard place?
Katie:
I think for me, a couple different things come to mind. I did see several times where people would… I guess nobody ever turned down an offer to be prayed for and to be prayed for in Jesus name. And I saw several times where people would come and then request that and ask that and ask, "Would you come and pray?" And then they would follow up and let you know how God answered that prayer and they could see him at work. And I remember one of my coworkers, who'd gone through a lot of heartbreak and he was devastated. And God would just put him on my heart, I would just send him a text message and he was just broken. We would talk over the phone sometimes and he would just weep and weep and weep and he'd gone through a lot of loss and so I would just send him these little messages.
Katie:
And I remember he stopped me at the office one day and he said to me, "Katie, how do you know every time I'm going through my darkest moments?" And I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He said, "Well, I have some moments where I'm just still so overwhelmed and I don't think I can do this and then you send me a text message. So how do you know that that's my darkest moment?" And I said to him, "Well, I don't know. I don't know anything like that," But I said, "God does know and I think that this is part of how God wants you to know that he cares for you." And it was really interesting because this was somebody who loved to debate religion and could see you're talking about religion as a barrier. He liked to debate that.
Katie:
But the next thing he said to me was, he said, "I know that some Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God." And he said, "Are you one of those Christians?" And I said, "Yeah, I am." And he said, "Why do you believe that?" And again, the walls were down and there were not these great chasms. We were just a couple of people on broken journeys looking for a loving God and to just see the Lord move in those ways was always really powerful to me.
Cathy:
What about you Maggie, anything come to mind when you think about what you learned about God or how you saw God at work in people's lives or in some of these places that surprised you maybe?
Maggie:
Yeah. I think the first thing that comes to mind is when I started out in Egypt, I was really young and I think in a place of not even being confident in certain aspects of my own faith. I used to work a lot in that particular time with people from Sudan and Somalia and I was consistently asked two questions. And the first one was, why do American women give birth lying down? Which was just a burning question on so many people's mind, I don't know why. I don't know why also maybe I gave off some vibe that they were like, "This person might know." But they just were like, "they're always in the movies just lying down, what in the world?" And so I was like, "I have no idea. You're right, That doesn't makes sense." But the second one and asked in different languages and in different ways was, "Has God left this place? Has God abandoned Somalia? Has God left me?"
Maggie:
Because so much, to be honest, of the evidence was that God had left people. And I really wrestled with that myself where seeing death for the first time in my life or experiencing violence and really wondering like, "Can God even be in these places?" And I think feeling a lot of, at times, anger towards God. And I remember this work that I was doing was within the walls of a church and I remember one time just feeling so sad that I was here within the walls of a church, our people asking has God left me? Has God abandoned this place? And for me, it was just really a reminder that God is not within the walls of a building and he's not some distant God living in a different place but that God is in his people. And that we are the answer to that question. That God chose the church, as broken as it is, to be that presence, that reminder of, that God is with people.
Maggie:
And I think for me during that time, I think the seeing in the Bible this narrative of displacement of people in the wilderness and God meeting them at the height of their suffering, at the height of even at times their own rejection of God and disobedience, that God pursued people in all of those places. And I think when I was really at the height of my own doubt, I remember saying to my pastor at the time, "I'm so disillusioned with God." And he was like, "Well, that sounds like a really good place to be." And I was like, "Yeah, nope. It's a terrible for place to be. God doesn't speak to me no matter what I do." And he is like, "Well, if you really break down that word, it's the falling away of an illusion. And it sounds like there's an illusion of who God is that you've lost. But I guess my question is, are you willing to find out who God really is?"
Maggie:
And I think that that just set me on a journey of maybe being curious about who God really was and realizing that so much of what I believed about God was from a specific culture and a specific teaching and a specific doctrine that I hadn't really deeply explored and I think that set me off on a journey. And again, of experiencing God through God's people, through people. And I think at times, like you said Cathy, not even Christians necessarily but people that God had definitely appointed to reach out in those moments. And I think about the way I describe it is hospitality and I think we've cheapened that word. At least, in my mind, is being a good host and having a clean house and inviting people over after church. But hospitality in its truest definition is kindness to strangers.
Maggie:
And I think that I experienced that from so many people, whether it's days where… I'm a public crier, sometimes I feel safer crying in public. I don't know why, it's not safer. But these people don't know me, they won't see me again. And so I would cry all the time on the Metro in Cairo and always people would come over to you and be like, "Are you okay? What's wrong?" They were so genuinely concerned. I feel like it expanded my view of God and who God is and how God works and where God meets us that we don't have to come to God but that God will go to radical lengths to pursue us. And that gives me also a lot of hope just for other people and just knowing that God will meet them on their journey and pursues them on their journey.
Cathy:
I love that. I love hearing how he works through other people just sometimes in the most surprising circumstances, unexpected ways, at unexpected moments, he reminds us that he's always with us. He sees what's going on, he sees our hearts, our circumstances and is there with us through those times. Katie right now in Afghanistan, people are experiencing horrible atrocities and so much loss and hardship right now. And we've just been talking about how people at times might feel like or wonder if God has left them. And I imagine, I'm sure you do too, that people in Afghanistan right now might be feeling like God has left them. What would you say to them if you had the opportunity to talk to them about that, about their current circumstances?
Katie:
There's no easy answer to that. And I think if we find an easy answer, it's probably not a true answer. And I think in many ways, the hard thing about being far away right now is that there's sort of nothing to say, there's such a desire just to be with people. And I think the name Emmanuel, God is with us, has been such a powerful name of God for me in this whole journey and I've thought about that a lot with people in Afghanistan and as my own faith journey goes on. I think I have less and less certainty about what God is doing and why he's doing what he's doing and the way he's doing it. I don't understand the ways of God and I cannot begin to explain them but I feel like he continues to show me his heart.
Katie:
And I was thinking back to a time that I had already moved away from Afghanistan and I'd gone on back to visit and to do a short consulting job there. And I really wanted to move back and God did not give me permission to basically. And so I returned to the States and I was home and I was just praying and I started to just weep. And clearly we even know from today, I'm a bit of a crier but this time I was weeping with those tears that weren't even my own tears. And I said to the Lord, "Lord, what is this weeping? What is this weeping doing? What is it accomplishing? Is this part of changing my heart? Is this part of moving something in the heavenly realms? What is this weeping doing?" And I kind didn't even expect God to answer me right in that moment but by his spirit, he did in such a clear and immediate way.
Katie:
And he just said to me, "Thank you for letting me cry with you." And so I think about what is God doing in Afghanistan right now? I'm not entirely sure but I believe we serve a God who weeps with those who a weep. And I believe that he is grieving over the losses and over the hurt and over the pain that people are experiencing. And I believe that he will show himself to be Emmanuel, the God who is with us. And I believe that he's a God who makes all things new and in his time, he makes it beautiful. And so it's a journey of faith as we wait to see what that looks like. And in the meanwhile, I think he's a God who cries with us.
Cathy:
Thank you for that absolutely beautiful reminder for all of us. I'm sure there are people listening today that are going through hard things in their lives as well and I believe that's a word for them as well. So I want to just thank you both. I believe that the listeners today have been incredibly blessed and just caught a glimpse into your life experiences and the stories that you shared and just the amazing ways that God has worked in your lives and in the lives of people in the places that you've lived and worked and served. And I know it's been an incredible encouragement to me and pray that it is to those that are listening as well. So thank you both for being with us today on the podcast.
Katie:
Yeah. Thanks for us, Cathy.
Maggie:
Yeah. Thank you.
Cathy:
I want to thank our listeners for joining us today. I hope that your mind has been opened up a little bit, your heart has been touched through some of the stories that you have heard today. As I mentioned earlier, if you're curious about learning a little bit more about World Concern, about our work beyond the end of the road, you can visit worldconcern.org/podcast to learn more. I want to thank CRISTA Ministries, World Concerns parent organization for making this podcast possible. And I also want to thank Casey Helmick and the whole team at Terra Firma for their production and editing and consulting expertise for helping us bring these stories to life and bring them to you. Thanks again for are joining us today, we look forward to more stories at the end of the road next time.
